Comments on: How bad DO sites overstate their number of visitors? http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/ new media strategies and other marketing gems Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:04:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: It's not overstated http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47956 It's not overstated Sun, 10 Jun 2007 04:22:31 +0000 http://www.douglaskarr.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47956 Re-reading the article and your response again...<i>you're right.</i> I originally misunderstood your point. Thanks for clarifying. That being said, gautam is right--more and more folks are using flash cookies, even when they have no other reason to serve flash. Dirty little secret: you can't (easily) delete cookies set in your flash. (Google's doesn't serve much flash. DoubleClick does...) If sites want to come clean to advertisers, they need more transparency about how many times which object was viewed by whom, and when. Since log files aren't good at that, they''ll need lots of data in a database. A very large database. Since that isn't going to happen soon, the best idea, like you say, is to focus on results! Re-reading the article and your response again…you’re right. I originally misunderstood your point. Thanks for clarifying.

That being said, gautam is right–more and more folks are using flash cookies, even when they have no other reason to serve flash. Dirty little secret: you can’t (easily) delete cookies set in your flash.

(Google’s doesn’t serve much flash. DoubleClick does…)

If sites want to come clean to advertisers, they need more transparency about how many times which object was viewed by whom, and when.

Since log files aren’t good at that, they”ll need lots of data in a database. A very large database.

Since that isn’t going to happen soon, the best idea, like you say, is to focus on results!

]]> By: Douglas Karr http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47894 Douglas Karr Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:25:39 +0000 http://www.douglaskarr.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47894 The article that is written is not discussing login/logout issues with respect to cookies, it's talking about cookie <strong>deletion</strong> and its impact on unique pageviews. Yahoo! does not delete cookies when you logout and login. At issue is that over 30% of households DELETE their cookies, so you are seen as a new visitor... not another one in the household. Please read the article for a more in-depth explanation. Your example is also what I mention in my post, that many people visit the same site from multiple machines. With 4 PCs and a Mac between 2 adults, if you visit the same site on all machines, you can be seen as up to 5 'unique visitors', not 2.5! And if you are regularly deleting cookies as do 30%+ of the population, that turns to well over 12.5 unique visitors. Like I said, I don't believe it's fraudulent... but it IS overstated. Your household proves it. Thanks for commenting! The article that is written is not discussing login/logout issues with respect to cookies, it’s talking about cookie deletion and its impact on unique pageviews. Yahoo! does not delete cookies when you logout and login.

At issue is that over 30% of households DELETE their cookies, so you are seen as a new visitor… not another one in the household. Please read the article for a more in-depth explanation.

Your example is also what I mention in my post, that many people visit the same site from multiple machines. With 4 PCs and a Mac between 2 adults, if you visit the same site on all machines, you can be seen as up to 5 ‘unique visitors’, not 2.5! And if you are regularly deleting cookies as do 30%+ of the population, that turns to well over 12.5 unique visitors.

Like I said, I don’t believe it’s fraudulent… but it IS overstated. Your household proves it.

Thanks for commenting!

]]> By: It's not overstated http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47890 It's not overstated Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:00:33 +0000 http://www.douglaskarr.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47890 "an average of 2.5 distinct cookies was observed per computer for Yahoo!" How many Yahoo users are there per household computer? Yeah, probably around 2 or 3. I know I'm constantly logging off my wife so I can check my account, whether it's on Yahoo or Google, Schwab or any other site. In our house, we happen to have 4 PCs and a Mac online between 2 adults, so it happens whether you have one computer or many. If you have a reg site and your server logs handy, make a report of the names for each IP addresses. (this shows how many people share computers/have dup accounts). Then make a report that shows how many IPs each name has appeared on. (this shows that a) ips get recycled by isps and b) users log in from mulitiple locations. ) So yeah, the 2.5 number is about right. Not fraudulent, not overstated, just right. No story here. Move along now. “an average of 2.5 distinct cookies was observed per computer for Yahoo!”

How many Yahoo users are there per household computer? Yeah, probably around 2 or 3. I know I’m constantly logging off my wife so I can check my account, whether it’s on Yahoo or Google, Schwab or any other site.

In our house, we happen to have 4 PCs and a Mac online between 2 adults, so it happens whether you have one computer or many.

If you have a reg site and your server logs handy, make a report of the names for each IP addresses. (this shows how many people share computers/have dup accounts). Then make a report that shows how many IPs each name has appeared on. (this shows that a) ips get recycled by isps and b) users log in from mulitiple locations. )

So yeah, the 2.5 number is about right. Not fraudulent, not overstated, just right. No story here. Move along now.

]]> By: gautam http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47738 gautam Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:32:06 +0000 http://www.douglaskarr.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47738 you said it, there is no accurate way of determining unique visitors to a website. cookies are not reliable and now many people are using flash for client side storage. But for advertisers, page view is all that matters. Its easy to accurately determine the numbers of times an ad is displayed :) And then, many web statistics services have there own problem. Live statistics site like statcounter will take into account a limited number of users at a time. google analytics is much better at this, but sometimes i have to wait for 2 days to get the latest report :( you said it, there is no accurate way of determining unique visitors to a website.

cookies are not reliable and now many people are using flash for client side storage.

But for advertisers, page view is all that matters. Its easy to accurately determine the numbers of times an ad is displayed :)

And then, many web statistics services have there own problem. Live statistics site like statcounter will take into account a limited number of users at a time.

google analytics is much better at this, but sometimes i have to wait for 2 days to get the latest report :( ]]> By: Stephen http://www.marketingtechblog.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47710 Stephen Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:48:45 +0000 http://www.douglaskarr.com/2007/06/07/cookie-deletions/#comment-47710 Perhaps in the future something along the lines of CardSpace will illuminate this problem. Although, it could become too Big Brother. We'll just have to wait and see. Perhaps in the future something along the lines of CardSpace will illuminate this problem. Although, it could become too Big Brother. We’ll just have to wait and see. ]]>